Rabbi Simcha Bunim of Przysucha said that after the sin of the Golden Calf, the Israelites had no idea that repentance could be received by God. They repented purely out of regret for what they had done, not because they thought they would be forgiven, so they were forgiven. But after the sin of the spies, they knew that repentance existed, so they repented thinking they would be forgiven, so they weren't forgiven.
Wow, I never heard that before. Thank you, that dovetails nicely with what I wrote.
I actually have given a shiur about how the idea of repentance was a chiddush after the Golden Calf (which is why Moshe at first didn't know what to do when Hashem told him that He was going to destroy the people - Moshe needed the hint of "Leave Me alone" to realize that "It's up to me"). The next time I give that shiur, I'll try to include the chiddush of Rav Simcha Bunim that you presented.
Love the distinction between Eleh Ezkera/Arzie Lebanon.
The Torah reading on shacharis/mincha seem to have a tone of teshuva and the repartition of the penultimate verse seems to indicate the desire for teshuva.
Always thought of Tisha B’Av as the start of the yamim noaraim as the sheva d’nechmta ends at Rosh hashana; the ultimate comfort is knowing that He is the King.
Additionally-I usually mediate that our sins destroyed the beis hamikdash, what else has sin destroyed ?
Even though I explained Tisha B'Av in very stark "no repentance!" terms, I think that there are other approaches which can coexist even as they present contradictory understandings of the day. Kriat HaTorah in the morning is a good example of that. (I think that the afternoon is altogether different, and the nature of that part of the day - nechama - does permit some form of teshuva, as seen in mincha's Torah reading.)
As almost everything is this religion, multiple approaches are acceptable (and encouraged?). Maybe, for the sake of theory, we can synthesis these ideas into “missed teshuva” נחשפנו דרכנו ורחוקה. The Rambam has a three stepped approached to teshuva and maybe Tisha B’Av is the pre-first step (step zero). Rambam says that viduy is the first step, but Tisha B’Av is the day where we realize that we have sinned-it exist. Now that we have sim awareness and how it can manifest in history (ala churban) we can get ready to admit to sin. Love to hear your thoughts. Tisha B’Av as sin and awareness of distance which leads to teshuva
Maybe our viewpoints come from the attitude presented. We’re his people, he has to take us back-that’s the whole notion of choosiness. As far as we stray hashem doesn’t abandon his people כי לא יתוש עמו. To me, Tisha B’Av is about how sin causes distance, distance leads to punishment and punishment leads to reconciliation. Our actions have consequences.
The geula and hashems acceptance of us is inevitable. עם כל זה אחכה לו
My one reservation is that by seeing Tisha B'Av as step zero, so to speak, we're seeing it as a part of a process where we reconcile with G-d. Of course that's the goal, but before that's even possible we need to acknowledge that we really messed up, and that's true regardless of whether we take it further or leave it at that. In other words, if part of the theme of Tisha B'Av is an emphasis on G-d's autonomy and avoiding the "He has to take us back!" attitude, where we dictate to G-d what He should/has to do, I fear that seeing this as step zero, as a part of the teshuva process, undermines the psychological acceptance of "He will take us back we hope, but it's up to Him, not us."
I have also looked at Tisha B'Av as a necessary precursor to the Teshuva of Elul, but not really as a first step. Often when we attempt to repent we are unable to really look back and see how far we have strayed. Instead we stay pretty attached to the world we're in, with reasonable attempts at fixing our situation.
But to do full Teshuva, to really go back requires not just a superficial or even real regret, but a recognition that everything has gone to pieces. One day where we lie on the floor and lament the destruction of our life, and we act as if the world has ended is just what is needed for us to remake our outlook. A day in which we embrace our distance ensures that we don't just continue trying to fix things on our terms, but perhaps begin to see G-d's will from the bottom of the pit. Perhaps this is what Chazal meant with אין בן דוד בא אלא בהיסח הדעת. When we have stopped trying to figure it out, and true despair sets in, including, as you have said, of G-d making it better, maybe from there a new understanding can reach us on His terms.
Rabbi Simcha Bunim of Przysucha said that after the sin of the Golden Calf, the Israelites had no idea that repentance could be received by God. They repented purely out of regret for what they had done, not because they thought they would be forgiven, so they were forgiven. But after the sin of the spies, they knew that repentance existed, so they repented thinking they would be forgiven, so they weren't forgiven.
Wow, I never heard that before. Thank you, that dovetails nicely with what I wrote.
I actually have given a shiur about how the idea of repentance was a chiddush after the Golden Calf (which is why Moshe at first didn't know what to do when Hashem told him that He was going to destroy the people - Moshe needed the hint of "Leave Me alone" to realize that "It's up to me"). The next time I give that shiur, I'll try to include the chiddush of Rav Simcha Bunim that you presented.
Thank you for this, excellent!
Thank you, Yaacov!
Love the distinction between Eleh Ezkera/Arzie Lebanon.
The Torah reading on shacharis/mincha seem to have a tone of teshuva and the repartition of the penultimate verse seems to indicate the desire for teshuva.
Always thought of Tisha B’Av as the start of the yamim noaraim as the sheva d’nechmta ends at Rosh hashana; the ultimate comfort is knowing that He is the King.
Additionally-I usually mediate that our sins destroyed the beis hamikdash, what else has sin destroyed ?
Thank you, these are all good points.
Even though I explained Tisha B'Av in very stark "no repentance!" terms, I think that there are other approaches which can coexist even as they present contradictory understandings of the day. Kriat HaTorah in the morning is a good example of that. (I think that the afternoon is altogether different, and the nature of that part of the day - nechama - does permit some form of teshuva, as seen in mincha's Torah reading.)
As almost everything is this religion, multiple approaches are acceptable (and encouraged?). Maybe, for the sake of theory, we can synthesis these ideas into “missed teshuva” נחשפנו דרכנו ורחוקה. The Rambam has a three stepped approached to teshuva and maybe Tisha B’Av is the pre-first step (step zero). Rambam says that viduy is the first step, but Tisha B’Av is the day where we realize that we have sinned-it exist. Now that we have sim awareness and how it can manifest in history (ala churban) we can get ready to admit to sin. Love to hear your thoughts. Tisha B’Av as sin and awareness of distance which leads to teshuva
Maybe our viewpoints come from the attitude presented. We’re his people, he has to take us back-that’s the whole notion of choosiness. As far as we stray hashem doesn’t abandon his people כי לא יתוש עמו. To me, Tisha B’Av is about how sin causes distance, distance leads to punishment and punishment leads to reconciliation. Our actions have consequences.
The geula and hashems acceptance of us is inevitable. עם כל זה אחכה לו
Very interesting. I definitely hear that.
My one reservation is that by seeing Tisha B'Av as step zero, so to speak, we're seeing it as a part of a process where we reconcile with G-d. Of course that's the goal, but before that's even possible we need to acknowledge that we really messed up, and that's true regardless of whether we take it further or leave it at that. In other words, if part of the theme of Tisha B'Av is an emphasis on G-d's autonomy and avoiding the "He has to take us back!" attitude, where we dictate to G-d what He should/has to do, I fear that seeing this as step zero, as a part of the teshuva process, undermines the psychological acceptance of "He will take us back we hope, but it's up to Him, not us."
I have also looked at Tisha B'Av as a necessary precursor to the Teshuva of Elul, but not really as a first step. Often when we attempt to repent we are unable to really look back and see how far we have strayed. Instead we stay pretty attached to the world we're in, with reasonable attempts at fixing our situation.
But to do full Teshuva, to really go back requires not just a superficial or even real regret, but a recognition that everything has gone to pieces. One day where we lie on the floor and lament the destruction of our life, and we act as if the world has ended is just what is needed for us to remake our outlook. A day in which we embrace our distance ensures that we don't just continue trying to fix things on our terms, but perhaps begin to see G-d's will from the bottom of the pit. Perhaps this is what Chazal meant with אין בן דוד בא אלא בהיסח הדעת. When we have stopped trying to figure it out, and true despair sets in, including, as you have said, of G-d making it better, maybe from there a new understanding can reach us on His terms.
Excellent, Yitzie.