Rav Kook's view reminds me (lehvadil) of George Orwell's remark that some ideas are so stupid, only an intellectual could believe them.
I've said before that, regardless of the halakhic arguments, the ability of Haredim to watch other Jews fight and die for them without lifting a finger to help is a huge failure to meet the requirements of loving one's neighbour.
A few comments are in order regarding the post about Natural Morality:
1. Rav Kook writes frequently about Mussar, in general, and מוסר טבעי, in particular. His assumption is that Mussar is a key factor in every aspect of Jewish life.
2. According to Rav Kook מוסר טבעי is also from God because, in creating the world, God "looked into the Torah and then created the world." Thus, the Torah Mussar is a layer of more refined Musar that is added to the foundation of מוסר טבעי, which itself is also divine.
3. In accusing the "gedolay HaDor" of the Chareidi world in Israel of a lack of מוסר טבעי and of Torah Mussar, you have missed a crucial element: Just as Rav Kook explains, מוסר טבעי and Torah Mussar are inherently divine. Thus, one's theological/Halachic viewpoint and understanding are linked to one's Mussar. The Charedi gedolim reject both theologically and halachically any legitimacy to Medinat Yisrael and to the non-Charedi Jews living in the Medinah. They, the Charedim, are the "real Jews." The rest of the Jews in Medinat Yisrael are not authentic Jews. Until these attitudes and beliefs change, the Charedim will not let their precious "boys" serve in the army. What will change their opinion? That will happen only when two things occur: (1) The Israeli Gov't ceases to support all Charedi institutions, period. (2) When the Chareidim discover that the America Charedi community will not and cannot support them.
Thank for your cogent article. Keep up the good work! from David Derovan
“They, the Charedim, are the "real Jews." The rest of the Jews in Medinat Yisrael are not authentic Jews.”
This is simply not true. The Chareidim know that anyone with a Jewish mother or who has converted according to halacha is a “real Jew”. Are they living authentic Jewish lives? The answer is: people do all kinds of mitzvot that we don’t see (many many women in Israel go to the mikvah, for example, but from the outside we may not know it). Usually the answer is ,”not yet.”
You do not have to defend the vast majority of the Jews (non-Chareidim) in Israel. We are a wonderful people. Over 75% of Israeli Jews have a Pesach Seder and fast on Yom Kippur. Of course, they all do Mitzvot!! But the hard core Chareidim, don't "see" this.
The tendency of some scholars to lose touch with basic common sense and morality reminds me of a line from Hamlet: "The native hue of resolution / Sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought".
When the government actually wins this war and creates a true Torah army, it will be much easier to make the case for Haredim joining. That being said it definitely seems to me that sometimes the Haredim like the fact that the army is not a Torah army, as it gives them an excuse not to serve.
The Charedim believe that they are the last bastion of true Torah learning and observance and that if they fall, the Torah itself will be imperiled. Obviously we don't share that view, but one who truly believes this can give a moral justification of all that has been done as an עת לעשות לה׳. Whether or not they are at all sensitive to the cost/damage of this עת לעשות לה׳ is questionable, but in principle, the claim can be made.
On a related note, I think the threat mass enlistment would have on the survival of the Charedi community is vastly underestimated. No matter what user-friendly conditions were created for Charedim, rightly or wrongly (and to my mind - wrongly), much of the Charedi community has never been given the fortitude required to step outside its ghetto walls and stay frum. Given that reality, to encourage mass enlistment is essentially a call for them to commit mass-spiritual-suicide, as they are in fact claiming. I think it is unrealistic to expect the Charedim to do that in order to address the issues raised by the manpower shortage. It is more realistic to expect them to address the issues in a more morally sensitive manner than the way in which they are.
Although it might not be straightforward for them to do so, I think it's important for them to show הכרת הטוב and concern for the soldiers and their families. They could acknowledge that they feel that this is an עת לעשות לה׳ and this requires them to take an approach that is not ideal, rather than behave as though their behaviour is completely לכתחילה. Even if they believe that תורה provides the main protection of כלל ישראל, they can acknowledge that the level of מסירות נפש involved in going to war is incomparably greater. They could also have הכרת הטוב for the soldiers from Hesder for sacrificing their own learning to protect כלל ישראל. I realise that they might argue (and some have argued) that for their own self-preservation they cannot afford to do these things, but I believe that כלל ישראל cannot afford for them not to, not to mention their own עבודת המידות that demands it.
Agreed. But it's not just the masses. Some Gedolim are telling people not to daven or feel concern. They say that they can't afford to show sympathy because it might encourage people to go to the army. But I think that fails to acknowledge how damaging that is to one's מידות and to כלל ישראל. (I'd be interested to know which Gedolim in Israel say that they should be davening for the soldiers, because I've only heard about a few. I certainly don't think it's the majority.)
In my opinion, anyone who maintains a smidgen of moral sense will realize that the war in Gaza is a desecration of the name. Killing with no purpose, traumatizing the soldiers. Torah Jews are validating Judaism by refusing to fight.
The rest of Israeli Jews are sacrificing their children to the idol of nationalism. It’s tragic
Every country needs to fight wars in order to exists. You are clearly ignorant of Torah Judaism. Start with the Rambam in The Laws of Kings and Wars and see if war is against Torah Judaism.
Conscription is a form of slavery—state-imposed servitude that strips individuals of autonomy over their bodies and time. It has no moral legitimacy and certainly no halachic basis in a Torah society. To claim otherwise is to pervert the very sources one pretends to uphold.
And invoking the laws of kings (Hilchot Melachim) to justify compulsory IDF service is not just a category error—it’s a theological farce. Rambam’s laws of kings describe a Torah government, led by a melekh, sanctioned by a prophet or Sanhedrin, and guided by halacha. The IDF is not an army of such a king—it is a secular apparatus governed by political considerations, foreign pressure, and public relations optics. The same IDF that forbids permanent victory and prioritizes the enemy’s comfort over Jewish lives cannot claim the legitimacy of halachic warfare.
You don’t get to cherry-pick from Rambam to compel Jews into serving a regime that ignores his framework entirely. A Jewish soldier has a chiyuv to disobey orders that contradict Torah; a Jewish community has a chiyuv to resist systems that violate it at their core. If anything, refusing to serve in such an army is closer to fulfilling the law of the king than submitting to it.
The idea that is being expressed here was expressed back in the 1700s by the baal shem Tov, namely that the simple Jew has an advantage over the learned scholar and that he approaches G-d with a basic simple faith so this idea is nothing new. As an adherent of the Chabad movement (I actually grew up haredy and left it) we seek to merge scholarship with simple Hasidic joy, faith and singing in prayer along with love of the fellow Jew, which is to me a perfect symbiosis. At least we strive towards that.
As to the idea about the draft nobody seems to mention this other than an Israeli who I respect who was once the member of the knesset Moshe Feiglin, and finally the Israeli government is doing what he proposed from the very beginning 17 months ago namely, that Israel needs to occupy Gaza retake it evict the evil dwellers there and resettle the place.
Since the last 15 months that was not the goal and they seem to be playing with the lives of the IDF soldiers trying to show the world how 'humanitarian' Israel is I would have said that not only should the religious not serve, but every soldier should put down their weapon and tell the government until you execute this war the way it should be done, (no aid to the enemy) none of us are going to serve.
The other point as well which I'm sure you know is the religious view is that had you followed the Torah which is never to give up any territory Israel should never have left Gaza in the first place meaning that you created this mess and now you're asking our sons to go and give their lives to fix the mess that you created in the first place. The leftists are ruining Israel and the world
Chareidi hashkafa would be to give up land if it brings peace. Nowadays, it’s known that it won’t bring peace, so it is a different question. Even though it has turned cold, peace with Egypt (giving up Sinai) has indeed brought peace, and has probably saved countless lives. But now? A totally different shaila.
If mainstream Chareidim logically followed that belief, the Chazon Ish would not have sent Shlomo Lorenz to the Knesset. Anti-Zionists do follow the logic that you stated . In my neighborhood, it is a veritable color war around election time —“Don’t Participate in the Ziyoini…” vs. “Vote Gimmel!” Or whatever.
Conscription is slavery. The state does not own your body and your time. Especially not for an army where victory is forbidden in the name of public relations. Rav Kook would never approve of the way the IDF fights.
Your appeal to the authority of Rav Kook really doesn't hit the spot.
Maybe some of us never accepted that authority and refuse to accept an outside morality.
But his point is, on the face of things, is rather weak. Is he claiming that not learning Torah is better than learning Torah? How is that even possible?
Of course it's possible. Sometimes the basic right and wrong sense can be complicated by overscholarship. (Think of a talmud chacham trying to find a source to report a molester to the authorities. An am Haaretz knows its mutar instinctively)
You haven't proven anything. Punishing a molester, like any other halacha, is subject to the halachic process. An am ha'aretz who offers an opinion is a mechutzaf and a fool. Just like in Hilchos Shabbos, Mumei Bechor, and Kemitzah.
I strongly disagree. Derech Eretz Kodma latorah. One cannot even begin to learn Halacha without a strong sense of derech Eretz. If one tries to deduct Derech Eretz from the Torah, he will get a very corrupt Derech Eretz and also a very corrupt Torah. An Am Haaretz with a good sense of Derech Eretz is superior to a Talmud Chacham who lacks Derech Eretz and knows Torah. סם מוות הוא לו.
(Btw It has nothing to do with punishment and everything to do with stopping it from happening again.)
If we were disagreeing about what Torah says, we could use Torah as proof. But you are claiming that the Torah has no authority here. How could either of us prove our point?
I believe that the Torah is the only authority, and without the Halacha in Ch"m 388 it would be forbidden to report a molester to the authorities. How can you prove me wrong? (The halacha is the same, it is permitted and obligatory, because of Ch"m 388; we are not disagreeing about the halacha.)
We learn out the fact it is forbidden to save your own life at another expense due to sevara (ie, moral Derech Eretz/innate morality.) Obviously, by now that made it into the Shulchan Aruch, but it was not originally part of Torah.
Last week in Daf Yomi we learnt one could hit his kid black and blue for chinuch from a pasuk! Yet of someone did that today they'd be dead wrong. (And of course should be reported). Our innate morality changed.
1. Sevara is not morality. Sevara is part of the Torah's morality that believes that a Jewish life may not be terminated, and two Jewish lives are equal. Not humanist morality.
2. Not last week. Two weeks ago. And if things have changed, it is because nowadays, as opposed to in the olden days, beating a child won't help anything. Increased civilization has distanced humanity from the consequences of their actions and inactions, and they will no longer deduce the correct lesson from the petch their parent gives them. That is why we don't patch. Not because morality changed.
This post is very confusing. Who are the scholars? And who are the simple uneducated Jews? Presumably you are calling the chareidi rabbinic leaders the scholars, and the chareidi masses the simple uneducated Jews. And you are saying that the simple uneducated Jews have a strong moral sense, and understand how important it is to join the army and help their brothers. But this is obviously not true. The chareidi masses are not joining the army to help their brothers. So I am struggling to make sense of what you are saying here, and how this aphorism from Rav Kook (expounded upon by Dr. Shapiro) has any relevance.
Rav Kook's view reminds me (lehvadil) of George Orwell's remark that some ideas are so stupid, only an intellectual could believe them.
I've said before that, regardless of the halakhic arguments, the ability of Haredim to watch other Jews fight and die for them without lifting a finger to help is a huge failure to meet the requirements of loving one's neighbour.
A few comments are in order regarding the post about Natural Morality:
1. Rav Kook writes frequently about Mussar, in general, and מוסר טבעי, in particular. His assumption is that Mussar is a key factor in every aspect of Jewish life.
2. According to Rav Kook מוסר טבעי is also from God because, in creating the world, God "looked into the Torah and then created the world." Thus, the Torah Mussar is a layer of more refined Musar that is added to the foundation of מוסר טבעי, which itself is also divine.
3. In accusing the "gedolay HaDor" of the Chareidi world in Israel of a lack of מוסר טבעי and of Torah Mussar, you have missed a crucial element: Just as Rav Kook explains, מוסר טבעי and Torah Mussar are inherently divine. Thus, one's theological/Halachic viewpoint and understanding are linked to one's Mussar. The Charedi gedolim reject both theologically and halachically any legitimacy to Medinat Yisrael and to the non-Charedi Jews living in the Medinah. They, the Charedim, are the "real Jews." The rest of the Jews in Medinat Yisrael are not authentic Jews. Until these attitudes and beliefs change, the Charedim will not let their precious "boys" serve in the army. What will change their opinion? That will happen only when two things occur: (1) The Israeli Gov't ceases to support all Charedi institutions, period. (2) When the Chareidim discover that the America Charedi community will not and cannot support them.
Thank for your cogent article. Keep up the good work! from David Derovan
“They, the Charedim, are the "real Jews." The rest of the Jews in Medinat Yisrael are not authentic Jews.”
This is simply not true. The Chareidim know that anyone with a Jewish mother or who has converted according to halacha is a “real Jew”. Are they living authentic Jewish lives? The answer is: people do all kinds of mitzvot that we don’t see (many many women in Israel go to the mikvah, for example, but from the outside we may not know it). Usually the answer is ,”not yet.”
You do not have to defend the vast majority of the Jews (non-Chareidim) in Israel. We are a wonderful people. Over 75% of Israeli Jews have a Pesach Seder and fast on Yom Kippur. Of course, they all do Mitzvot!! But the hard core Chareidim, don't "see" this.
Of course you are right up until “But the hard core Chareidim, don't "see" this.” Respectfully, not true.
Regrettably, it is true. Listen to what the Peleg HaYerushalmi's Rabbanim say in public. It pains me to say it. But that is what they believe.
Yes. I hear you. Very sad.
Wow! So profound, thank you for sharing!
The tendency of some scholars to lose touch with basic common sense and morality reminds me of a line from Hamlet: "The native hue of resolution / Sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought".
When the government actually wins this war and creates a true Torah army, it will be much easier to make the case for Haredim joining. That being said it definitely seems to me that sometimes the Haredim like the fact that the army is not a Torah army, as it gives them an excuse not to serve.
The Charedim believe that they are the last bastion of true Torah learning and observance and that if they fall, the Torah itself will be imperiled. Obviously we don't share that view, but one who truly believes this can give a moral justification of all that has been done as an עת לעשות לה׳. Whether or not they are at all sensitive to the cost/damage of this עת לעשות לה׳ is questionable, but in principle, the claim can be made.
On a related note, I think the threat mass enlistment would have on the survival of the Charedi community is vastly underestimated. No matter what user-friendly conditions were created for Charedim, rightly or wrongly (and to my mind - wrongly), much of the Charedi community has never been given the fortitude required to step outside its ghetto walls and stay frum. Given that reality, to encourage mass enlistment is essentially a call for them to commit mass-spiritual-suicide, as they are in fact claiming. I think it is unrealistic to expect the Charedim to do that in order to address the issues raised by the manpower shortage. It is more realistic to expect them to address the issues in a more morally sensitive manner than the way in which they are.
Thanks.
Although it might not be straightforward for them to do so, I think it's important for them to show הכרת הטוב and concern for the soldiers and their families. They could acknowledge that they feel that this is an עת לעשות לה׳ and this requires them to take an approach that is not ideal, rather than behave as though their behaviour is completely לכתחילה. Even if they believe that תורה provides the main protection of כלל ישראל, they can acknowledge that the level of מסירות נפש involved in going to war is incomparably greater. They could also have הכרת הטוב for the soldiers from Hesder for sacrificing their own learning to protect כלל ישראל. I realise that they might argue (and some have argued) that for their own self-preservation they cannot afford to do these things, but I believe that כלל ישראל cannot afford for them not to, not to mention their own עבודת המידות that demands it.
Agreed. But it's not just the masses. Some Gedolim are telling people not to daven or feel concern. They say that they can't afford to show sympathy because it might encourage people to go to the army. But I think that fails to acknowledge how damaging that is to one's מידות and to כלל ישראל. (I'd be interested to know which Gedolim in Israel say that they should be davening for the soldiers, because I've only heard about a few. I certainly don't think it's the majority.)
In my opinion, anyone who maintains a smidgen of moral sense will realize that the war in Gaza is a desecration of the name. Killing with no purpose, traumatizing the soldiers. Torah Jews are validating Judaism by refusing to fight.
The rest of Israeli Jews are sacrificing their children to the idol of nationalism. It’s tragic
Every country needs to fight wars in order to exists. You are clearly ignorant of Torah Judaism. Start with the Rambam in The Laws of Kings and Wars and see if war is against Torah Judaism.
Here’s a possible response you can post or share:
---
Conscription is a form of slavery—state-imposed servitude that strips individuals of autonomy over their bodies and time. It has no moral legitimacy and certainly no halachic basis in a Torah society. To claim otherwise is to pervert the very sources one pretends to uphold.
And invoking the laws of kings (Hilchot Melachim) to justify compulsory IDF service is not just a category error—it’s a theological farce. Rambam’s laws of kings describe a Torah government, led by a melekh, sanctioned by a prophet or Sanhedrin, and guided by halacha. The IDF is not an army of such a king—it is a secular apparatus governed by political considerations, foreign pressure, and public relations optics. The same IDF that forbids permanent victory and prioritizes the enemy’s comfort over Jewish lives cannot claim the legitimacy of halachic warfare.
You don’t get to cherry-pick from Rambam to compel Jews into serving a regime that ignores his framework entirely. A Jewish soldier has a chiyuv to disobey orders that contradict Torah; a Jewish community has a chiyuv to resist systems that violate it at their core. If anything, refusing to serve in such an army is closer to fulfilling the law of the king than submitting to it.
Thank you for your great articles
The idea that is being expressed here was expressed back in the 1700s by the baal shem Tov, namely that the simple Jew has an advantage over the learned scholar and that he approaches G-d with a basic simple faith so this idea is nothing new. As an adherent of the Chabad movement (I actually grew up haredy and left it) we seek to merge scholarship with simple Hasidic joy, faith and singing in prayer along with love of the fellow Jew, which is to me a perfect symbiosis. At least we strive towards that.
As to the idea about the draft nobody seems to mention this other than an Israeli who I respect who was once the member of the knesset Moshe Feiglin, and finally the Israeli government is doing what he proposed from the very beginning 17 months ago namely, that Israel needs to occupy Gaza retake it evict the evil dwellers there and resettle the place.
Since the last 15 months that was not the goal and they seem to be playing with the lives of the IDF soldiers trying to show the world how 'humanitarian' Israel is I would have said that not only should the religious not serve, but every soldier should put down their weapon and tell the government until you execute this war the way it should be done, (no aid to the enemy) none of us are going to serve.
The other point as well which I'm sure you know is the religious view is that had you followed the Torah which is never to give up any territory Israel should never have left Gaza in the first place meaning that you created this mess and now you're asking our sons to go and give their lives to fix the mess that you created in the first place. The leftists are ruining Israel and the world
Chareidi hashkafa would be to give up land if it brings peace. Nowadays, it’s known that it won’t bring peace, so it is a different question. Even though it has turned cold, peace with Egypt (giving up Sinai) has indeed brought peace, and has probably saved countless lives. But now? A totally different shaila.
If mainstream Chareidim logically followed that belief, the Chazon Ish would not have sent Shlomo Lorenz to the Knesset. Anti-Zionists do follow the logic that you stated . In my neighborhood, it is a veritable color war around election time —“Don’t Participate in the Ziyoini…” vs. “Vote Gimmel!” Or whatever.
Afaik, Eitz claims to be following in the path of Rav Shach and Rav Elyashiv.
Eitz is different than “the Old Yishuv”. And municipal is different than country-wide.
Conscription is slavery. The state does not own your body and your time. Especially not for an army where victory is forbidden in the name of public relations. Rav Kook would never approve of the way the IDF fights.
https://open.substack.com/pub/joshuashalet/p/the-mitzvah-of-being-cannon-fodder?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=4whdgd
Your appeal to the authority of Rav Kook really doesn't hit the spot.
Maybe some of us never accepted that authority and refuse to accept an outside morality.
But his point is, on the face of things, is rather weak. Is he claiming that not learning Torah is better than learning Torah? How is that even possible?
Of course it's possible. Sometimes the basic right and wrong sense can be complicated by overscholarship. (Think of a talmud chacham trying to find a source to report a molester to the authorities. An am Haaretz knows its mutar instinctively)
You haven't proven anything. Punishing a molester, like any other halacha, is subject to the halachic process. An am ha'aretz who offers an opinion is a mechutzaf and a fool. Just like in Hilchos Shabbos, Mumei Bechor, and Kemitzah.
I strongly disagree. Derech Eretz Kodma latorah. One cannot even begin to learn Halacha without a strong sense of derech Eretz. If one tries to deduct Derech Eretz from the Torah, he will get a very corrupt Derech Eretz and also a very corrupt Torah. An Am Haaretz with a good sense of Derech Eretz is superior to a Talmud Chacham who lacks Derech Eretz and knows Torah. סם מוות הוא לו.
(Btw It has nothing to do with punishment and everything to do with stopping it from happening again.)
כל האומר אין לי אלא תורה אין לו אפילו תורה
There is no way to prove anything.
If we were disagreeing about what Torah says, we could use Torah as proof. But you are claiming that the Torah has no authority here. How could either of us prove our point?
I believe that the Torah is the only authority, and without the Halacha in Ch"m 388 it would be forbidden to report a molester to the authorities. How can you prove me wrong? (The halacha is the same, it is permitted and obligatory, because of Ch"m 388; we are not disagreeing about the halacha.)
We learn out the fact it is forbidden to save your own life at another expense due to sevara (ie, moral Derech Eretz/innate morality.) Obviously, by now that made it into the Shulchan Aruch, but it was not originally part of Torah.
Last week in Daf Yomi we learnt one could hit his kid black and blue for chinuch from a pasuk! Yet of someone did that today they'd be dead wrong. (And of course should be reported). Our innate morality changed.
1. Sevara is not morality. Sevara is part of the Torah's morality that believes that a Jewish life may not be terminated, and two Jewish lives are equal. Not humanist morality.
2. Not last week. Two weeks ago. And if things have changed, it is because nowadays, as opposed to in the olden days, beating a child won't help anything. Increased civilization has distanced humanity from the consequences of their actions and inactions, and they will no longer deduce the correct lesson from the petch their parent gives them. That is why we don't patch. Not because morality changed.
This post is very confusing. Who are the scholars? And who are the simple uneducated Jews? Presumably you are calling the chareidi rabbinic leaders the scholars, and the chareidi masses the simple uneducated Jews. And you are saying that the simple uneducated Jews have a strong moral sense, and understand how important it is to join the army and help their brothers. But this is obviously not true. The chareidi masses are not joining the army to help their brothers. So I am struggling to make sense of what you are saying here, and how this aphorism from Rav Kook (expounded upon by Dr. Shapiro) has any relevance.