I'm willing to be convinced by a valid halachic argument. I'm not willing to be convinced by cliches, the misreading of sources, or shallow argumentation.
I totally understand your frustration with this rude and arrogant bochur. He had no right to talk the way he did, and your reaction is perfectly understandable and justified.
I do believe the conclusion that our (chareidi) side has no sources is unwarranted. I have seen many sources for both sides (and obviously think a reasonable reading supports our side). However, my experience has been that the issue is too raw and emotional to have a reasonable, sourced-based discussion, with both sides being interested in hearing what the other side has to say. I have yet to see evidence that the people who demand sources are actually open to having a Torah-based discussion when we attempt. We will probably need to wait until after the war, may it end soon.
Although I believe strongly that all Israelis should serve in the army, especially the Haredi community whose commitment to the future of the Jewish Nation and Jewish Values should make them idea soldiers, and a major asset to the IDF
However it is almost impossible to make a dry objective Halachic argument as we are all noge'a b'davar, everyone, from the biggest Talmidei Chachamim and the youngest bochur already has an opinion as to why Bochrei Yeshiva should or should not be drafted into the army, and it is almost impossible to be objective when looking at halachic sources.
My limited understanding of Halacha shows that the overwhelming moral and halachic course of action right now is very every single able-bodied person to contribute to the war effort in any way that they can, especially if they are at an age where they can take up a gun and serve, and anyone who doesn't is transgressing many halachic obligations. This is also the conclusion of the Rabbinim and Roshei Yeshiva that I have heard speak about the topic.
However, I am sure that my Halachic opinion is based not only on sources that I have learnt, but on my world view, and Rabbanim with a different world view would understand the same sources differently.
There is no one who is truly objective in this discussion, so trying make a proof based on Halacha is unlikely to influence anyone.
They do. I have argued the case on my blog many times. I have gone onto other blogs and argued the case many times. I have seen many good arguments from others. Almost nobody is open hearing any arguments from the other side.
Thanks for sharing. The article presents the "shevet Levi" model for exempting Haredi yeshiva young men from army service. Is this an example of "Almost nobody is open [to] hearing any arguments from the other side."?
Not really, since I don't necessarily expect people from the other side to come to my blog and engage with me (Even so, there are plenty who do, but on that particular article there was very little engagement with the substance of the article). Here is a better example of people engaging, but not being interested in the sources https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-city-next-to-the-river
What vile infection has got into the minds of our yeshivah leaders these days? When Rabbi Akiva was head of his yeshivah and a terrible plague broke out (which some claim to be a war against non-believers), the students fought and overcame this scurge after past days of encountering bad losses, and on Tu-Bishvat, the reversal of this rate of loss is celebrated every year at Merom. Yet even with this celebration 45 of our orthodox celebrants suffered loss of life (about 3 years ago) through their ignorance of how to behave. Today none of the Yeshivah leaders wishes to learn from and follow Akiva in this historic good example of where the emphasis should be justly placed in fighting evil? Even these days the apparent enthusiasm for celebrating our faith has been overcome with lack of due consideration for our fellows. Should we all become yeshiva students so that the IDF would have nobody serving in it and we could all then rely on Heavenly grace for survival? The holocaust should surely be sufficient reminder that it takes more than good belief and prayer for survival.
On Saturday night April 13 2024 Iran fired 300 projectiles at Israel. 99% were intercepted and a Bedouin girl was injured (mainly because there weren’t proper shelters in that area).
That night was also the 6th of Nissan. When Bein Hazmanim was already a few days in (not to mention Motzai Shabbos) so pretty much the amount of learning was minimal. Yet, one of the biggest miracles occurred.
Headlines addresses this issue. Rabbi Pfeffer who is a haredi Rav has a fascinating take on the issue. You can listen here. https://overcast.fm/+AAtT_kDsMmY/29:21
I've attended a couple of lectures recently on this topic. It seems, from the lecturers, that a number of the arguments AGAINST the Haredim serving are due to misinterpretation of the sources. One in particular referred to contributing to the walls of the city by the 'Rabbis' who said they didn't need protection. BUT, if I remember correctly that was applicable only to their PERSONAL protection, and not for the protection of the city, and didn't apply to their students.
It most certainly didn't apply to a milchemet mitzvah, something in which we're currently engaged and IMHO which would apply to most (if not all) of Israels' military actions/wars.
That's right, it's (from what I recall) one of the only - if not the only - halachic source (as opposed to aggadic source) that indicates that Torah protects. There's a lot to say about this on a practical level, such as the fact that it only refers to the city's outstanding scholar(s), and not to all yeshiva students. But most importantly, it does not indicate that the city doesn't need a wall because the scholar is there, but that he is personally protected and doesn't need to contribute towards the building of the wall. So even if we assume that this source literally means that Torah protects the scholar, it actually indicates that Torah does not protect anyone else, as they still need the wall.
Accordingly, even if we assume that the protection applies to all yeshiva students (which is clearly not the case), their decision not to serve in the army - based on this source alone - ends up meaning, "We're safe so we don't need to serve, even though the rest of you are not." Selfish, in other words.
I'm sure what I write will be meaningless, but, what the heck, I'll do it anyway. As usual, truth lies somewhere in the middle, not at the extremes. The idea that Torah would NOT protect a nation, is an odd assertion for a religious person. There are plenty of references, including when Yehoshua was leading his forces in battle, which had a bad outcome because they hadn't learned properly. Of course, just understanding the idea that Torah learning is the highest mitzvah, k'neged kulom, and that the Torah mentions very often that practicing the mitzvos are what ultimately provide success. In any event, on the flip side, OF COURSE there are many halachic considerations when it comes to war and pekuach nefesh. The sad part is that many rabbis are ignoring those wilfully and not giving them in any real consideration. That said, what MOST DEFINITELY will destroy the Jewish nation is strife. Loshon hora, sinas chinam, machlokes are well documented reasons for destruction both from spiritual forces and from practical reasons. So, the question is, you have stubborn people who have long denigrated Torah study and you have people who have become trained to fight back at them always. I find more fault on the side of those over decades who have tried to minimize the value of Torah in Israel, both for the preservation of its Jewish identity and its physical safety. I find it also entirely understandable that people that have loved ones in the army are upset and frustrated. Nevertheless, I think it's counterproductive both to the safety of the land, and loved ones who ARE fighting to engage in character assassination of Torah figures. It will only make those on tje front lines in greater danger. Please take this in to consideration when protesting these policies. Say your piece. Express your feelings of abandonment and the feeling the lack of hakoros hatov, etc... Don't hold back. But say it respectfully of Torah and its leaders. Don't make the narrative angry and denegrating to Hashem. Please, I plead with you. It isn't necessary. You can be as vocal without going down that path. You may even be surprised, that such an approach may even yield results faster.
I totally understand your frustration with this rude and arrogant bochur. He had no right to talk the way he did, and your reaction is perfectly understandable and justified.
I do believe the conclusion that our (chareidi) side has no sources is unwarranted. I have seen many sources for both sides (and obviously think a reasonable reading supports our side). However, my experience has been that the issue is too raw and emotional to have a reasonable, sourced-based discussion, with both sides being interested in hearing what the other side has to say. I have yet to see evidence that the people who demand sources are actually open to having a Torah-based discussion when we attempt. We will probably need to wait until after the war, may it end soon.
Amen!
I agree with you.
Although I believe strongly that all Israelis should serve in the army, especially the Haredi community whose commitment to the future of the Jewish Nation and Jewish Values should make them idea soldiers, and a major asset to the IDF
However it is almost impossible to make a dry objective Halachic argument as we are all noge'a b'davar, everyone, from the biggest Talmidei Chachamim and the youngest bochur already has an opinion as to why Bochrei Yeshiva should or should not be drafted into the army, and it is almost impossible to be objective when looking at halachic sources.
My limited understanding of Halacha shows that the overwhelming moral and halachic course of action right now is very every single able-bodied person to contribute to the war effort in any way that they can, especially if they are at an age where they can take up a gun and serve, and anyone who doesn't is transgressing many halachic obligations. This is also the conclusion of the Rabbinim and Roshei Yeshiva that I have heard speak about the topic.
However, I am sure that my Halachic opinion is based not only on sources that I have learnt, but on my world view, and Rabbanim with a different world view would understand the same sources differently.
There is no one who is truly objective in this discussion, so trying make a proof based on Halacha is unlikely to influence anyone.
No need to conflate these two things:
1. What are the most persuave sources and arguments for (whatever the policy is)?
2. Will the opponents of this policy give the sources and arguments a fair hearing?
Proponents of a policy should argue their case regardless of #2.
They do. I have argued the case on my blog many times. I have gone onto other blogs and argued the case many times. I have seen many good arguments from others. Almost nobody is open hearing any arguments from the other side.
Happy to give a reading of the sources.
Which of your blog articles should I start with?
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/archive?sort=new
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/how-pleasant-it-is-when-brothers would be a good one to start with
Thanks for sharing. The article presents the "shevet Levi" model for exempting Haredi yeshiva young men from army service. Is this an example of "Almost nobody is open [to] hearing any arguments from the other side."?
Not really, since I don't necessarily expect people from the other side to come to my blog and engage with me (Even so, there are plenty who do, but on that particular article there was very little engagement with the substance of the article). Here is a better example of people engaging, but not being interested in the sources https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-city-next-to-the-river
A more recent example, https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/an-erev-tisha-bav-disgrace, It's clear that the interlocutor has zero interest in having any sort of substantive discussion.
What vile infection has got into the minds of our yeshivah leaders these days? When Rabbi Akiva was head of his yeshivah and a terrible plague broke out (which some claim to be a war against non-believers), the students fought and overcame this scurge after past days of encountering bad losses, and on Tu-Bishvat, the reversal of this rate of loss is celebrated every year at Merom. Yet even with this celebration 45 of our orthodox celebrants suffered loss of life (about 3 years ago) through their ignorance of how to behave. Today none of the Yeshivah leaders wishes to learn from and follow Akiva in this historic good example of where the emphasis should be justly placed in fighting evil? Even these days the apparent enthusiasm for celebrating our faith has been overcome with lack of due consideration for our fellows. Should we all become yeshiva students so that the IDF would have nobody serving in it and we could all then rely on Heavenly grace for survival? The holocaust should surely be sufficient reminder that it takes more than good belief and prayer for survival.
On Saturday night April 13 2024 Iran fired 300 projectiles at Israel. 99% were intercepted and a Bedouin girl was injured (mainly because there weren’t proper shelters in that area).
That night was also the 6th of Nissan. When Bein Hazmanim was already a few days in (not to mention Motzai Shabbos) so pretty much the amount of learning was minimal. Yet, one of the biggest miracles occurred.
Headlines addresses this issue. Rabbi Pfeffer who is a haredi Rav has a fascinating take on the issue. You can listen here. https://overcast.fm/+AAtT_kDsMmY/29:21
He explains it’s not a halachic issue. It’s fear about what will happen to the boys in the army. It’s fear of change etc.
Rabbi Alfred Cohen published an article about this topic in the Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society. https://daat.ac.il/daat/english/halacha/cohen_1.htm
I've attended a couple of lectures recently on this topic. It seems, from the lecturers, that a number of the arguments AGAINST the Haredim serving are due to misinterpretation of the sources. One in particular referred to contributing to the walls of the city by the 'Rabbis' who said they didn't need protection. BUT, if I remember correctly that was applicable only to their PERSONAL protection, and not for the protection of the city, and didn't apply to their students.
It most certainly didn't apply to a milchemet mitzvah, something in which we're currently engaged and IMHO which would apply to most (if not all) of Israels' military actions/wars.
That's right, it's (from what I recall) one of the only - if not the only - halachic source (as opposed to aggadic source) that indicates that Torah protects. There's a lot to say about this on a practical level, such as the fact that it only refers to the city's outstanding scholar(s), and not to all yeshiva students. But most importantly, it does not indicate that the city doesn't need a wall because the scholar is there, but that he is personally protected and doesn't need to contribute towards the building of the wall. So even if we assume that this source literally means that Torah protects the scholar, it actually indicates that Torah does not protect anyone else, as they still need the wall.
Accordingly, even if we assume that the protection applies to all yeshiva students (which is clearly not the case), their decision not to serve in the army - based on this source alone - ends up meaning, "We're safe so we don't need to serve, even though the rest of you are not." Selfish, in other words.
I'm sure what I write will be meaningless, but, what the heck, I'll do it anyway. As usual, truth lies somewhere in the middle, not at the extremes. The idea that Torah would NOT protect a nation, is an odd assertion for a religious person. There are plenty of references, including when Yehoshua was leading his forces in battle, which had a bad outcome because they hadn't learned properly. Of course, just understanding the idea that Torah learning is the highest mitzvah, k'neged kulom, and that the Torah mentions very often that practicing the mitzvos are what ultimately provide success. In any event, on the flip side, OF COURSE there are many halachic considerations when it comes to war and pekuach nefesh. The sad part is that many rabbis are ignoring those wilfully and not giving them in any real consideration. That said, what MOST DEFINITELY will destroy the Jewish nation is strife. Loshon hora, sinas chinam, machlokes are well documented reasons for destruction both from spiritual forces and from practical reasons. So, the question is, you have stubborn people who have long denigrated Torah study and you have people who have become trained to fight back at them always. I find more fault on the side of those over decades who have tried to minimize the value of Torah in Israel, both for the preservation of its Jewish identity and its physical safety. I find it also entirely understandable that people that have loved ones in the army are upset and frustrated. Nevertheless, I think it's counterproductive both to the safety of the land, and loved ones who ARE fighting to engage in character assassination of Torah figures. It will only make those on tje front lines in greater danger. Please take this in to consideration when protesting these policies. Say your piece. Express your feelings of abandonment and the feeling the lack of hakoros hatov, etc... Don't hold back. But say it respectfully of Torah and its leaders. Don't make the narrative angry and denegrating to Hashem. Please, I plead with you. It isn't necessary. You can be as vocal without going down that path. You may even be surprised, that such an approach may even yield results faster.