I have to say that I agree with you. You may not remember. .but I (an orthodox Jew, mizrahi-religious, not haredi) with a colleague (secular, leftist) filed proceedings that reached the Israeli Supreme court (on more than one occasion) against the writings of Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg for their immoral theological support of Goldstein, the works: Baruch HaGever and Tippul Shoresh. He was found to have committed an offense of incitement and only was obliged to apologise.. but was not properly punished for Baruch HaGever for technicalities of prosecution inefficiency. In other words, the authorities were lacking in handling this terrible extreme phenomenon.. Only one good thing has resulted: it seems that since those proceedings that Rabbi Ginsburg had been very wary of making utterances or writing on topics he knows will bring about criminal prosecution, which he deserves as he deserved for those writings.
Yeah- I guess you're suggesting that the hundreds of thousands who voted for him do not represent Observant Judaism. A little bit of humility on your part and you might realize that political views are indeed a conundrum and many intelligent people can hold diametrically opposed views on these subjects
If he's so ineffective you wouldn't get so upset by him. No, he's very effective at what he wants to do. He has allowed us to finally pray on the Har Habayit, which the politicians you so adore would never allow. Regarding Dr. Goldstein hyd, the great and holy tzaddik, you can get as outraged as you want, but the fact is that supporting Dr. Goldstein is a legitimate Jewish position. Clearly Rav Lichtenstein did not consider one who admired Dr. Goldstein to be unworthy of dialog. Many great Rabbis such as Rav Lior and Rav Ginsburg have spoken well of Dr. Goldstein, and the reason why is clear. We are at war with the Arabs as a whole. In the times of war, kill the best of Gentiles. This halacha is used by the Rambam in hilchos avoda zara. It was quite clear that the Arabs of Hebron were planning an attack and Dr. Goldstein gave his life to save them. Talk to Jews in Hebron and they will tell you.
I’m utterly horrifed by this article, in which you equate Baruch Goldstein with Hamas, accuse Ben Gvir of believing in Jewish Strength but not a Jewish G-d and besmirch Rabbi Lior for daring to eulogize Goldstein. Sounding out the pompous moral authority of Rabbi Amital and Rabbi Lichtenstein, you bombastically state that Goldstein’s act was “one of the greatest crimes perpetrated in Israeli history by a Jewish person”, ignoring the entire context of the incident.
You never lived in Hevron, you never treated your friends as they were expiring from terrorist bullets near Kiryat Arba, you never heard the taunts of Itbah Al Yahud from the children of the 1929 massacre perpetrators and you probably still believe that there are Arabs in Hevron -or Gaza for that matter - that we can live with. Goldstein did live in this cauldron of hate, he saw that Hevron Arabs all support Hamas (to this day) and all justify wanton indiscriminate murder of Jews. He may not have known the halachic rule regarding a gentile who incites, abets and supports the murder of any Jew- which is capital punishment, as explained succinctly in the books you excoriated -Torat Hamelech and other such tomes. This is not practical politically but it is far from morally bankrupt as you claim (it doesn’t fit with your westernized values and attempts to foist Deracheha Darchei Noam in every context).
I’m sorry, Goldstein’s “crime” was to implement halacha in a way which cannot be done in the state of Israel today, but it is far from the greatest crime in Israeli history and may have even saved a massacre of Jews on that Purim day. I would not put Goldstein’s picture on the wall, but I will not condemn as morally obtuse one who does. Ben Gvir may be a buffoon, he may make controversial statements too often but he knows a good Arab from a bad one- his police has over a thousand Arabs, many in senior positions, but there are also tons of Arabs rotten to the core on both sides of the Green Line, and they are stockpiling weapons- both to kill each other and then to murder Jews. The rise in internecine Arab warfare is worrying but police under Ben Gvir have made inroads into the protection rackets and gangs in the Galilee but are powerless to locate the huge number of weapons -hundreds of thousands - in the Israeli Arab villages.
Kahane warned in the 70s of the danger of Umm Al-Fahm, and he turned out to be a prophet, as multiple attacks in recent years have issued from this hotbed of irredentism, which even Lieberman suggested should be handed over to the PA. I wouldn’t agree with all of his xenophobic rhetoric, but the Left in Israel has led us nowhere in the past 40 years even as it sought to maintain the high moral ground.
The fact that people like you can't recognize a Chilul HaShem like the murder of dozens of people at prayer and feel a need to justify the action shows how far some extreme elements of Judaism have drifted from jewish values.
If you are not aware of the fact that murdering non Jews at prayer is against basic Jewish Values, then I am afraid that are practicing completely different religions.
I am aware that murdering non Jews at prayer when their own religion calls for a jihad against Jews, an eternal war against the infidels who do not believe in their prophet, is a fulfillment of the dictum הבא להרגך השכם להרגו, especially when they are salafi Jihadists. The Arabs of Chevron are the descendants of the 1929 murderers, they all come from the same clans and have the same extremist opinions. It would be hard to find one Arab in Chevron who wouldn't justify the indiscriminate murder of "settlers" both men, women and children. Most if not all celebrate any terrorist action -even against unarmed, pregnant women. Thus I do not equate this with "murdering non Jews at prayer" in any other moral context, which would obviously be repugnant. If you don't distinguish between this and the Arabs of Chevron, then all I can say to you is what Santayana said 'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it'
צרור את המדינים. למה כי צוררים הם לכם- מכאן אמרו חכמים אם בא להרגך השכם להרגו -ילקוט פינחס
Note that the Midianites have not attacked the Israelites at all but they sought ways to incite them to sin so that they will be discredited by G-d, and that is enough reason to attack them. Incitement would be if an Arab told his child in school or at home that אטבח אל-יהוד is legitimate, something that practically every one of them has heard and taught. Maybe go to a different yeshiva where you don't try to foist Western values into your Torah.
That said, I am not suggesting to hotheads to go and implement this dictum for every case of incitement, just mentioning that we shouldn't be quick to judge those who respond to the mass communal incitement of the Palestinians (almost 100% would be happy if your throat was cut)
There is too much to comment on in your comment, so I will just say this. Equating and analogizing are two very different things. I am not sure if you don’t know that or if you purposely made that error to make the author sound bad.
I’m a newcomer here to your wonderful work and want to thank you for your thoughtful, caring and insightful writing. I have been interested in the Baruch Goldstein case but have admittedly not researched it more than a cursory way. I do not mean to imply any defense of what very well may be a heinous act of violence and chillul Hashem, however, my little exposure to the defense of Baruch Goldstein is not as you mention, that he just snapped and lost it, but rather he was privy to a planned terrorist attack that was set to take place that day. The story goes that he had attempted to inform the security establishment, yet his pleas fell on deaf ears. Since, according to the intelligence he received, he knew that the perpetrators of the planned terrorist attack were congregating at maarat hamachpela, he went there himself on a mission of mesirut nefesh and kiddush H' to prevent such an attack. Please understand, this may be complete and utter nonsense, yet to be fair, that is the claim of the Religion Zionists who support Goldstein. I have not investigated the matter. Perhaps there have been attempts at quality investigative journalism regarding this controversial incident, and if so I would be interested to hear about it.
He does sound horrible. The only reason why Americans feel obligated to defend him is because all zionists get called evil over here with the same blood libel aimed at them.
I have to say that I agree with you. You may not remember. .but I (an orthodox Jew, mizrahi-religious, not haredi) with a colleague (secular, leftist) filed proceedings that reached the Israeli Supreme court (on more than one occasion) against the writings of Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg for their immoral theological support of Goldstein, the works: Baruch HaGever and Tippul Shoresh. He was found to have committed an offense of incitement and only was obliged to apologise.. but was not properly punished for Baruch HaGever for technicalities of prosecution inefficiency. In other words, the authorities were lacking in handling this terrible extreme phenomenon.. Only one good thing has resulted: it seems that since those proceedings that Rabbi Ginsburg had been very wary of making utterances or writing on topics he knows will bring about criminal prosecution, which he deserves as he deserved for those writings.
Your blog is called 'Orthodox Conundrum' but on this subject I don't think it's a conundrum at all- Observant Judaism has to reject Ben Gvir.
Yeah- I guess you're suggesting that the hundreds of thousands who voted for him do not represent Observant Judaism. A little bit of humility on your part and you might realize that political views are indeed a conundrum and many intelligent people can hold diametrically opposed views on these subjects
If he's so ineffective you wouldn't get so upset by him. No, he's very effective at what he wants to do. He has allowed us to finally pray on the Har Habayit, which the politicians you so adore would never allow. Regarding Dr. Goldstein hyd, the great and holy tzaddik, you can get as outraged as you want, but the fact is that supporting Dr. Goldstein is a legitimate Jewish position. Clearly Rav Lichtenstein did not consider one who admired Dr. Goldstein to be unworthy of dialog. Many great Rabbis such as Rav Lior and Rav Ginsburg have spoken well of Dr. Goldstein, and the reason why is clear. We are at war with the Arabs as a whole. In the times of war, kill the best of Gentiles. This halacha is used by the Rambam in hilchos avoda zara. It was quite clear that the Arabs of Hebron were planning an attack and Dr. Goldstein gave his life to save them. Talk to Jews in Hebron and they will tell you.
I’m utterly horrifed by this article, in which you equate Baruch Goldstein with Hamas, accuse Ben Gvir of believing in Jewish Strength but not a Jewish G-d and besmirch Rabbi Lior for daring to eulogize Goldstein. Sounding out the pompous moral authority of Rabbi Amital and Rabbi Lichtenstein, you bombastically state that Goldstein’s act was “one of the greatest crimes perpetrated in Israeli history by a Jewish person”, ignoring the entire context of the incident.
You never lived in Hevron, you never treated your friends as they were expiring from terrorist bullets near Kiryat Arba, you never heard the taunts of Itbah Al Yahud from the children of the 1929 massacre perpetrators and you probably still believe that there are Arabs in Hevron -or Gaza for that matter - that we can live with. Goldstein did live in this cauldron of hate, he saw that Hevron Arabs all support Hamas (to this day) and all justify wanton indiscriminate murder of Jews. He may not have known the halachic rule regarding a gentile who incites, abets and supports the murder of any Jew- which is capital punishment, as explained succinctly in the books you excoriated -Torat Hamelech and other such tomes. This is not practical politically but it is far from morally bankrupt as you claim (it doesn’t fit with your westernized values and attempts to foist Deracheha Darchei Noam in every context).
I’m sorry, Goldstein’s “crime” was to implement halacha in a way which cannot be done in the state of Israel today, but it is far from the greatest crime in Israeli history and may have even saved a massacre of Jews on that Purim day. I would not put Goldstein’s picture on the wall, but I will not condemn as morally obtuse one who does. Ben Gvir may be a buffoon, he may make controversial statements too often but he knows a good Arab from a bad one- his police has over a thousand Arabs, many in senior positions, but there are also tons of Arabs rotten to the core on both sides of the Green Line, and they are stockpiling weapons- both to kill each other and then to murder Jews. The rise in internecine Arab warfare is worrying but police under Ben Gvir have made inroads into the protection rackets and gangs in the Galilee but are powerless to locate the huge number of weapons -hundreds of thousands - in the Israeli Arab villages.
Kahane warned in the 70s of the danger of Umm Al-Fahm, and he turned out to be a prophet, as multiple attacks in recent years have issued from this hotbed of irredentism, which even Lieberman suggested should be handed over to the PA. I wouldn’t agree with all of his xenophobic rhetoric, but the Left in Israel has led us nowhere in the past 40 years even as it sought to maintain the high moral ground.
The fact that people like you can't recognize a Chilul HaShem like the murder of dozens of people at prayer and feel a need to justify the action shows how far some extreme elements of Judaism have drifted from jewish values.
If you are not aware of the fact that murdering non Jews at prayer is against basic Jewish Values, then I am afraid that are practicing completely different religions.
I am aware that murdering non Jews at prayer when their own religion calls for a jihad against Jews, an eternal war against the infidels who do not believe in their prophet, is a fulfillment of the dictum הבא להרגך השכם להרגו, especially when they are salafi Jihadists. The Arabs of Chevron are the descendants of the 1929 murderers, they all come from the same clans and have the same extremist opinions. It would be hard to find one Arab in Chevron who wouldn't justify the indiscriminate murder of "settlers" both men, women and children. Most if not all celebrate any terrorist action -even against unarmed, pregnant women. Thus I do not equate this with "murdering non Jews at prayer" in any other moral context, which would obviously be repugnant. If you don't distinguish between this and the Arabs of Chevron, then all I can say to you is what Santayana said 'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it'
If that misunderstanding of Halacha is how you understood the Dinim of הבא להרגך השכם להרגו, you should ask your Yeshiva for a refund.
צרור את המדינים. למה כי צוררים הם לכם- מכאן אמרו חכמים אם בא להרגך השכם להרגו -ילקוט פינחס
Note that the Midianites have not attacked the Israelites at all but they sought ways to incite them to sin so that they will be discredited by G-d, and that is enough reason to attack them. Incitement would be if an Arab told his child in school or at home that אטבח אל-יהוד is legitimate, something that practically every one of them has heard and taught. Maybe go to a different yeshiva where you don't try to foist Western values into your Torah.
That said, I am not suggesting to hotheads to go and implement this dictum for every case of incitement, just mentioning that we shouldn't be quick to judge those who respond to the mass communal incitement of the Palestinians (almost 100% would be happy if your throat was cut)
There is too much to comment on in your comment, so I will just say this. Equating and analogizing are two very different things. I am not sure if you don’t know that or if you purposely made that error to make the author sound bad.
I’m a newcomer here to your wonderful work and want to thank you for your thoughtful, caring and insightful writing. I have been interested in the Baruch Goldstein case but have admittedly not researched it more than a cursory way. I do not mean to imply any defense of what very well may be a heinous act of violence and chillul Hashem, however, my little exposure to the defense of Baruch Goldstein is not as you mention, that he just snapped and lost it, but rather he was privy to a planned terrorist attack that was set to take place that day. The story goes that he had attempted to inform the security establishment, yet his pleas fell on deaf ears. Since, according to the intelligence he received, he knew that the perpetrators of the planned terrorist attack were congregating at maarat hamachpela, he went there himself on a mission of mesirut nefesh and kiddush H' to prevent such an attack. Please understand, this may be complete and utter nonsense, yet to be fair, that is the claim of the Religion Zionists who support Goldstein. I have not investigated the matter. Perhaps there have been attempts at quality investigative journalism regarding this controversial incident, and if so I would be interested to hear about it.
He does sound horrible. The only reason why Americans feel obligated to defend him is because all zionists get called evil over here with the same blood libel aimed at them.
But he definitely sounds awful.
https://open.substack.com/pub/marlowe1/p/the-witching-snakes-pt-29?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=sllf3