The army desperately needs more soldiers... which makes Housing Minister Yitzchak Goldknopf's claims to the contrary disingenuous, dismissive, and cruel.
May Hashem protect your children, and all the other חיילים and bring them all home safely.
You have a lived experience that isn’t easily transferred into words.
Those of us who live in comfort and safety (particularly those who are protected by the IDF) should appreciate what is being sacrificed for their safety.
Thank you. You had me ready to repost this. Then I came to the punchline starting unrelentingly from "Last Sunday...". From that point on it is pure Lashon Hara. You do have my empathy, automatically as you began. That is Chesed. Automatic to another Jewish person ... and to any person. But as you know MUCH better than I do, opposite Chesed is Gevurah. Kindness opposite Strength. Balanced by Tifferes. As you know MUCH better than my level of Learning. But I know, no matter how deep your heart is beating that you need to remove 98% from "Last Sunday...". And then find a suitable way to address the very serious concerns expressed in that last section. Regards.
I'm wary of commenting as I'm not Israeli, not Haredi, never served in any army nor been to any yeshivah, so I arguably have no right to say anything. I'm scared of Haredi-bashing or anything that divides Jews at this time too. But I feel intense gratitude to the IDF, which I feel is, on some level, protecting us even in chutz la'aretz, let alone my family and friends in Israel.
I can't understand how some Haredi leaders can advance some of the arguments they're making. Forget all the halakhic and hashkafic arguments about Torah study vs. engagement with the world, of Torah protection vs. military protection and so on. Just the fact that *other Jews are in Gaza dying for you* should lead to some kind of instinctive emotional reaction, some kind of respect and gratitude at the very least, even if they disagree with Haredim serving.
On your latest podcast there was the quote from a Haredi leader (I forget who) to the extent that it is harder to be in the Beit Midrash than in Gaza, and all I could think was, "How many people have died in the Beit Midrash?" "Killing yourself for Torah" is a metaphor. What is happening to young soldiers in Gaza is not a metaphor.
The situation is indeed "absurd and untenable". I would say it is unconscionable that nearly twenty percent of a population should contribute virtually nothing to a war of existential implications while demanding financial support from the balance of the population who are making those sacrifices. Unfortunately, corruption of this type is a predictable result of a system of generous government transfer payments and economic welfare programs. If the Israeli Haredi community and their institutions were forced to be self-supporting, it would not take long before the current wall of social isolation would fall. Bad policy has created this monster.
I did not enjoy reading you article Scott, yet it does give me some better knowledge of the sacrifices that the haradi side of our population is doing to help in this terrible war. The commonly believed Israeli viewpoint is that all of the orthodox young men of army age are bluntly refusing to do any military service in deference to their more important Torah studies. . You have shown that this view is not correct and that at least some of these fellow Jews are participating in the sometimes deadly trials that all our heroic soldiers all have to face. I hope that this description and appeal for more soldiers will have some effect and that more orthodox Jews will accept the need for more participants without making a fuss about deferment and avoidance.
Perhaps it would be worthwhile to explain how long it takes to transition young men from civilians to being qualified to be part of a tank crew.
I would think though that the technical aspect is only one part, especially when it comes to haredim.
One also needs the courage to go into battle and the mindset of being committed either to the cause or to one's fellow soldiers, each feeling responsible for the others.
How does one transition from haredi culture, from a culture of selfishness and entitlement, one of contempt for the rest of Israeli society, to one of self-sacrifice for the sake of Clal Yisrael or at least for the sake of fellow tank members, to whom you feel no connection?
(I'll just note as an aside, if you think Ben Gvir is out of line for agitating for war without taking into account countervailing factors, you should probably not rely on repeating simplistic slogans to make your case.)
"I find Goldknopf’s attitude disingenuous, dismissive, and cruel. He is saying that the Torah of his voters is worth more than the Torah of my son-in-law. He is asserting that his constituents’ blood is redder than that of the rest of the Israeli public."
He's saying no such thing. His claim is that the army *rejected* charedi applicants. He might be right or he might be wrong or he might be delusional, but imputing claims about his thinking charedi blood is redder than others is simply slanderous.
"(my friend Rabbi Natan Slifkin already demonstrated the fallacy of this argument, even had the statistics been accurate" -
דובי יודקין, אחיו של חלל צה"ל סרן ישראל יודקין הי"ד שנפל בקרב ברצועת עזה, מספר לערוץ 7 על" ההתמודדות המתסכלת של משפחתו מול גורמי ההנצחה המסרבים לאפשר להם לציין את הכיתוב 'הי"ד' על מצבתו.
....
עוד הוא מציין את הקושי להכיל את החלטת משרד הביטחון דווקא בתקופה בה המערכת שואפת להביא לגיוס צעירים חרדים. הוא עצמו כקצין בן למשפחה חרדית שבעקבותיו התגייסו אחיו ועוד רבים "אחרים אינו יכול לענות היום לצעירים נוספים ששואלים אותו אם נכון להתגייס לצה"ל.
Goldknopf is right that it definitely appears that the military doesn't want many chareidim, as their rejection of 3,300 recruits for "health reasons" demonstrates. Slifkin demonstrated nothing to the contrary. See the comments to his post, which demonstrate how dishonest he is..
Or, Israel needs to end the war and pursue safety by fixing the problem that underlies this war and all of its wars - recognize human rights of Palestinians, write a constitution, become a real (aka secular) democracy, make Palestinians citizens and start treating citizens equally irrespective of their race, religion or creed.
You think this war is about keeping Jews safe, but it’s actually a war to maintain Jews’ ability to deny rights to Palestinians, which besides being a cause that Jews have not won in 75 years, so why would it work now, is also a very disgusting thing to be fighting for. It’s a bad cause. Real safety will come from civil rights and democratic institutions. Otherwise Israel is going to continue to be a sad Sparta, sacrificing its children forever.
The Torah Jews are funnily right for the wrong reasons- Torah study is supposed to keep Jews from doing wrong, in this case, fighting an unjust war, advancing a terrible ideology. They’re focused on the logistical aspect instead of the content but the path leads to the same place.
Your Comment's writing is clear, cool, pseudo-intellectual/pseudo-neutral. But, it is possible you are actually not particularly neutral. Not that you claim to be, it is just that you write as if you were. As if you were the one who has it all so clearly figured out, labeled, boxed and stored neatly in alphabetical order. But as you show you want only a 'secular' democracy. Is that one that allows for full living a Torah based life? Of course - some few millions within Israel understand that the recognized founders of the modern State were 'violently' opposed to traditional Jewish Cultural Practices. Just as are some few millions of Jewish persons today whether in Israel or in the Diaspora (if one is allowed to use that word). The non-Jewish writer Prof. Francisco Gil-White has so far worked 20 years to research the 'Muddle East' as I call it. He is attempting to help us all i.e. all Jewish persons of any persuasion; and any non-Jewish person anywhere. Just a few essays of his present most of us with absolutely vital facts and factors which potentially can allow each of us to understand beyond what our preferred associates tell us to believe. Here are a few of his recent essays which you may or may not read at your discretion and you may or may not understand that he is attempting to set the grand record straight. a) https://franciscogilwhite.substack.com/p/semitism-vs-antisemitism-structure-of-history b) https://franciscogilwhite.substack.com/p/arab-palestinian-movement-and-nazi-genocide c) https://franciscogilwhite.substack.com/p/why-the-year-1848-is-so-important-today Regards.
So horribly frustrating
Well said. Let's hope that the Gedolim demonstrate greatness in being able to see the right way forward and not end up like the Meraglim
May Hashem protect your children, and all the other חיילים and bring them all home safely.
You have a lived experience that isn’t easily transferred into words.
Those of us who live in comfort and safety (particularly those who are protected by the IDF) should appreciate what is being sacrificed for their safety.
Thank you. You had me ready to repost this. Then I came to the punchline starting unrelentingly from "Last Sunday...". From that point on it is pure Lashon Hara. You do have my empathy, automatically as you began. That is Chesed. Automatic to another Jewish person ... and to any person. But as you know MUCH better than I do, opposite Chesed is Gevurah. Kindness opposite Strength. Balanced by Tifferes. As you know MUCH better than my level of Learning. But I know, no matter how deep your heart is beating that you need to remove 98% from "Last Sunday...". And then find a suitable way to address the very serious concerns expressed in that last section. Regards.
I'm wary of commenting as I'm not Israeli, not Haredi, never served in any army nor been to any yeshivah, so I arguably have no right to say anything. I'm scared of Haredi-bashing or anything that divides Jews at this time too. But I feel intense gratitude to the IDF, which I feel is, on some level, protecting us even in chutz la'aretz, let alone my family and friends in Israel.
I can't understand how some Haredi leaders can advance some of the arguments they're making. Forget all the halakhic and hashkafic arguments about Torah study vs. engagement with the world, of Torah protection vs. military protection and so on. Just the fact that *other Jews are in Gaza dying for you* should lead to some kind of instinctive emotional reaction, some kind of respect and gratitude at the very least, even if they disagree with Haredim serving.
On your latest podcast there was the quote from a Haredi leader (I forget who) to the extent that it is harder to be in the Beit Midrash than in Gaza, and all I could think was, "How many people have died in the Beit Midrash?" "Killing yourself for Torah" is a metaphor. What is happening to young soldiers in Gaza is not a metaphor.
The situation is indeed "absurd and untenable". I would say it is unconscionable that nearly twenty percent of a population should contribute virtually nothing to a war of existential implications while demanding financial support from the balance of the population who are making those sacrifices. Unfortunately, corruption of this type is a predictable result of a system of generous government transfer payments and economic welfare programs. If the Israeli Haredi community and their institutions were forced to be self-supporting, it would not take long before the current wall of social isolation would fall. Bad policy has created this monster.
I did not enjoy reading you article Scott, yet it does give me some better knowledge of the sacrifices that the haradi side of our population is doing to help in this terrible war. The commonly believed Israeli viewpoint is that all of the orthodox young men of army age are bluntly refusing to do any military service in deference to their more important Torah studies. . You have shown that this view is not correct and that at least some of these fellow Jews are participating in the sometimes deadly trials that all our heroic soldiers all have to face. I hope that this description and appeal for more soldiers will have some effect and that more orthodox Jews will accept the need for more participants without making a fuss about deferment and avoidance.
Nice essay.
Perhaps it would be worthwhile to explain how long it takes to transition young men from civilians to being qualified to be part of a tank crew.
I would think though that the technical aspect is only one part, especially when it comes to haredim.
One also needs the courage to go into battle and the mindset of being committed either to the cause or to one's fellow soldiers, each feeling responsible for the others.
How does one transition from haredi culture, from a culture of selfishness and entitlement, one of contempt for the rest of Israeli society, to one of self-sacrifice for the sake of Clal Yisrael or at least for the sake of fellow tank members, to whom you feel no connection?
If you quote the disingenuity, outright lies, and nastiness of Slifkin, you are the same as him.
Please say it ain't true.
"Israel needs more soldiers.
Israel needs more soldiers.
Israel needs more soldiers.
Israel needs more soldiers."
I've said my bit about this.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-idf-doesnt-want-charedim/comment/58481900
(I'll just note as an aside, if you think Ben Gvir is out of line for agitating for war without taking into account countervailing factors, you should probably not rely on repeating simplistic slogans to make your case.)
"I find Goldknopf’s attitude disingenuous, dismissive, and cruel. He is saying that the Torah of his voters is worth more than the Torah of my son-in-law. He is asserting that his constituents’ blood is redder than that of the rest of the Israeli public."
He's saying no such thing. His claim is that the army *rejected* charedi applicants. He might be right or he might be wrong or he might be delusional, but imputing claims about his thinking charedi blood is redder than others is simply slanderous.
"(my friend Rabbi Natan Slifkin already demonstrated the fallacy of this argument, even had the statistics been accurate" -
He cited a study which literally said the opposite of what he cited it for. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-idf-doesnt-want-charedim/comment/58436524 The only thing he demonstrated was the depths to which purported rationalists will sink to slime others as not only selfish, but unhealthy slobs to boot.
By the way, it probably doesn't help when the army refuses to honor the wishes of the bereaved family of a fallen charedi soldier.
https://www.inn.co.il/news/641290
דובי יודקין, אחיו של חלל צה"ל סרן ישראל יודקין הי"ד שנפל בקרב ברצועת עזה, מספר לערוץ 7 על" ההתמודדות המתסכלת של משפחתו מול גורמי ההנצחה המסרבים לאפשר להם לציין את הכיתוב 'הי"ד' על מצבתו.
....
עוד הוא מציין את הקושי להכיל את החלטת משרד הביטחון דווקא בתקופה בה המערכת שואפת להביא לגיוס צעירים חרדים. הוא עצמו כקצין בן למשפחה חרדית שבעקבותיו התגייסו אחיו ועוד רבים "אחרים אינו יכול לענות היום לצעירים נוספים ששואלים אותו אם נכון להתגייס לצה"ל.
Goldknopf is right that it definitely appears that the military doesn't want many chareidim, as their rejection of 3,300 recruits for "health reasons" demonstrates. Slifkin demonstrated nothing to the contrary. See the comments to his post, which demonstrate how dishonest he is..
Or, Israel needs to end the war and pursue safety by fixing the problem that underlies this war and all of its wars - recognize human rights of Palestinians, write a constitution, become a real (aka secular) democracy, make Palestinians citizens and start treating citizens equally irrespective of their race, religion or creed.
You think this war is about keeping Jews safe, but it’s actually a war to maintain Jews’ ability to deny rights to Palestinians, which besides being a cause that Jews have not won in 75 years, so why would it work now, is also a very disgusting thing to be fighting for. It’s a bad cause. Real safety will come from civil rights and democratic institutions. Otherwise Israel is going to continue to be a sad Sparta, sacrificing its children forever.
The Torah Jews are funnily right for the wrong reasons- Torah study is supposed to keep Jews from doing wrong, in this case, fighting an unjust war, advancing a terrible ideology. They’re focused on the logistical aspect instead of the content but the path leads to the same place.
Your Comment's writing is clear, cool, pseudo-intellectual/pseudo-neutral. But, it is possible you are actually not particularly neutral. Not that you claim to be, it is just that you write as if you were. As if you were the one who has it all so clearly figured out, labeled, boxed and stored neatly in alphabetical order. But as you show you want only a 'secular' democracy. Is that one that allows for full living a Torah based life? Of course - some few millions within Israel understand that the recognized founders of the modern State were 'violently' opposed to traditional Jewish Cultural Practices. Just as are some few millions of Jewish persons today whether in Israel or in the Diaspora (if one is allowed to use that word). The non-Jewish writer Prof. Francisco Gil-White has so far worked 20 years to research the 'Muddle East' as I call it. He is attempting to help us all i.e. all Jewish persons of any persuasion; and any non-Jewish person anywhere. Just a few essays of his present most of us with absolutely vital facts and factors which potentially can allow each of us to understand beyond what our preferred associates tell us to believe. Here are a few of his recent essays which you may or may not read at your discretion and you may or may not understand that he is attempting to set the grand record straight. a) https://franciscogilwhite.substack.com/p/semitism-vs-antisemitism-structure-of-history b) https://franciscogilwhite.substack.com/p/arab-palestinian-movement-and-nazi-genocide c) https://franciscogilwhite.substack.com/p/why-the-year-1848-is-so-important-today Regards.