One rabbinic understanding of the world before the Flood was a state where a merchant would bring produce to the market and everyone would steal less than a shaveh perutah - a monetarily insignificant amount they couldn't be charged for. That was, in a sense, also a victimless crime - the merchant could not claim an actual loss. Yet, in the aggregate, the merchant was ruined and the world was destroyed.
Thank you as always Scott. You reminded me of a story I think from R. Bleich at YU shlita, where he bought a box of Pesach candy with a great hechsher but very little candy in the large package....
The term "frum" used to have a negative connotation, somewhat like "self-righteous." There used to be a saying, "A priest is frum; a Jew should be ehrlich [honest]." We need to bring that back.
First, I’m curious how you define integrity? I can see how tax evasion and insider trading would fall into that category but I was thinking more along being honest when I instinctively read the word “integrity”.
Second, I’m curious why you think learning choshen Mishpat would increase integrity. If learning practical laws increased integrity, wouldn’t lawyers be the group with the most integrity? Jokes aside, I do wonder if it has an opposite effect of having people thinking about loopholes in the practical law instead of the meaning behind the law.
What's even more interesting is that the poorer element of society is more likely to be careful with these halachos. Especially Bnei Yeshiva.
In my line of work, I see Bnei Torah as the most honest of all, paying precisely on time, not attempting to renegotiate after a job is done etc.. Even if they are wealthier than the baaleboss who hires me, they are still more scrupulous about payment.
But it should be more emphasized in Rabbanim's speeches etc.. I don't think assifos are the way to go, and public shunning almost never works and creates machlokes.
Btw, dina demalchusa has halachic parameters, and should be discussed by halachists, not the general public.
Whether the crime is victimless is an unfortunate distraction. The Torah is teaching us the Good. Dishonesty and taking what is meant for others and not for you is Bad. Integrity is not about being nice to others, it is about being one, whole, definable, consistent person. It is the sine qua non of being Good. Incorporating into your own domain what belongs to someone else ruins you as a person. The problem is that this is all "off brand" of "frumkeit." It feels too universal, not special. But it is at the core of the Torah. Emunah throughout Tanach, as that Mesilas Yesharim also quotes, means being faithful in business. This is the missing message.
Consider the effect of tax burdens on the non Jewish communities. By depriving funds from public education, one winds up with a poorly educated majority. That will not bode well for us.
However, current educational standards are sometimes immoral, but that only means that Halacha observant Jews should be on public school boards as well.
I agree with you generally that this is a big deal and even more specifically that tax evasion and insider trading of the type that gets prosecuted is a big deal, I don't think they're the best examples of victimizing crimes. With insider trading, at least of public stocks, the seller and buyer would sell and buy regardless--they aren't losing. The law is such because if everyone does this then the system becomes corrupted and stops working as it should. Same with taxes. Your infinitesemal drop in the bucket taxes isn't going to hurt anyone--they're not borrowing more or less based on your tax unless you're Elon Musk.
Someone below noted the dor hamabul, and that's a good comparison. Again, with the less than shave p'ruta there really is no victim. Here I don't even think we have that.
BUT they are important because the system will collapse if we don't have the rule of law (ala dor hamabul) and because of the personal moral corruption it causes (which transfers to our children and community) and because of the tremendous khilul hashem. So that's at least three good reasons that don't involve victims. Just like private violations of taharat misphakha and eating treif on vacation don't have any victims.
Unfortunately if you are a lawyer and are a Ben Torah far too many names of prominent individuals in our communities litigate all kinds of claims in the secular courts against family members involving monetary claims disputes involving real estate , inheritance and domestic disputes that can and should be adjudicated by a competent Beis Din . Unfortunately if you learn Seder Nezikin without getting to Hilcasa Aliba DSmattesa you will be ignorant as to what Halacha requires and resort to the secular courts and probably gain a reputation for not dealing honestly both with Jews and Gentiles alike .
Like it or not there are numerous such cases in the court system that if you dig into the electronic filing system you will see evidence of Chillul HaShem
I think this is a problem that affects nonprofit organizations in general: it's hard to criticize people who might be generous donors. I've seen similar cases in the liberal Jewish world, where rabbis sometimes fail to gate-keep the far left if those people donate heavily.
“Lakewood has many people, and the chances of Ponzi schemers increases.” - Ponzi schemes are extremely rare. The year to year growth in lakewood, might seem big, but it’s minimal compared to the amount of ponzi schemes nationwide.
“Especially in a trusting, close-knit, community.
There is no reason to believe that there are more in Lakewood than anywhere else.” - I have no idea how you can justify these sentences back to back - just a blatant contradiction.
There isn’t a comprehensive well tracked database of Ponzi schemes in the US (especially since “Ponzi scheme” isn’t a crime it’s just another form of fraud)
That said there is a website that tracks Ponzi schemes and it finds fewer than 100 annually.
Lakewood (generous definition) makes up 0.0006% of the US population so even 1 Ponzi scheme would make it way more common than average. Even if that website misses 99% of cases, 2 Ponzi schemes in Lakewood would make it much much more common than national average.
We do have data. Not a perfect dataset but we do have data.
In other words we do have reason to believe Ponzi schemes are more common in Lakewood than anywhere else and your argument that “how minimal it is compared to other places” is something you made up with zero backing other than you want it to be so.
Did someone say 'we all know'? If yes, it wasn't me.
But now that you have shown us the basis of your accusations, there is no further reason for debate.
Lakewood remembers the fat investor who came to a meeting in Lakewood and chided the asskanim for Lakewood's fraud. It was no coincidence that his name was Bernie Madoff.
“Except that most anti-semites at least attempt to make a more convincing case than you do.”
Not sure what world you live in but anti remote don’t work to hard to make their case.
The truth is Tallymore is in Jasckon so you are right, I meant lakewood people not lakewood per se….
Maybe instead of just fighting off every claim you don’t like as anti Semetic, see if there is truth to it. And work on what there is to be worked on.
There is definitely a culture of “rules don’t apply to us” in lakewood. And that carries itself into business - and specifically the shady business practices of most of this town…
I mean, if you apply that same standard to other anti-semitic rhetoric that is almost identical to yours, like "Jews are the worlds biggest crooks", then sure. There are definitely a lot of Jewish crooks, and we should work on that. That's what I wrote about here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-review-of-jud-su-veit-harlan-1940. That's called self-criticism. But when you are only using anti-semitic tropes against those Jews that you hate, then you are a flaming hypocrite and are no different (and are probably worse) than standard anti-semites.
Saying "Lakewood is the capital of ponzi schemes" is not pointing out a flaw, it's hatred. Just like you would recognize that saying "Jews are the world's greediest thieves" is hatred, not criticism.
It's not the truth, and it is hateful. You are no better than other anti-semites. Except that most anti-semites at least attempt to make a more convincing case than you do.
That does not appear to be the mindset of khaza"l. Regardless, if you agree to live here then you are part of the social compact. You want to create a libertarian heaven then find a remote place and live off the grid with your compatriots. And I don't mean this faecitiously, but this is the system your ancestors decided to join when they moved here.
One rabbinic understanding of the world before the Flood was a state where a merchant would bring produce to the market and everyone would steal less than a shaveh perutah - a monetarily insignificant amount they couldn't be charged for. That was, in a sense, also a victimless crime - the merchant could not claim an actual loss. Yet, in the aggregate, the merchant was ruined and the world was destroyed.
Rav Amital used to say that if frum people acted according to halachic values, everyone would prefer to do business with them
That not being the case, it shows the true situation
I’ve heard Rav Bruer ztl quoted as saying, “Glatt kosher business is more important than Glatt Kosher meat!”
Thank you as always Scott. You reminded me of a story I think from R. Bleich at YU shlita, where he bought a box of Pesach candy with a great hechsher but very little candy in the large package....
Thank you for writing this.
The term "frum" used to have a negative connotation, somewhat like "self-righteous." There used to be a saying, "A priest is frum; a Jew should be ehrlich [honest]." We need to bring that back.
First, I’m curious how you define integrity? I can see how tax evasion and insider trading would fall into that category but I was thinking more along being honest when I instinctively read the word “integrity”.
Second, I’m curious why you think learning choshen Mishpat would increase integrity. If learning practical laws increased integrity, wouldn’t lawyers be the group with the most integrity? Jokes aside, I do wonder if it has an opposite effect of having people thinking about loopholes in the practical law instead of the meaning behind the law.
The interesting point is that I have heard many Charedi Jews ask questions and act with an integrity that would boggle the mind of outsiders.
Yet, those who misbehave are far more noticeable.
I have no doubt that’s true, BH.
My hope to make this definitional does not mean that many aren’t careful. Surely many are.
What's even more interesting is that the poorer element of society is more likely to be careful with these halachos. Especially Bnei Yeshiva.
In my line of work, I see Bnei Torah as the most honest of all, paying precisely on time, not attempting to renegotiate after a job is done etc.. Even if they are wealthier than the baaleboss who hires me, they are still more scrupulous about payment.
But it should be more emphasized in Rabbanim's speeches etc.. I don't think assifos are the way to go, and public shunning almost never works and creates machlokes.
Btw, dina demalchusa has halachic parameters, and should be discussed by halachists, not the general public.
Whether the crime is victimless is an unfortunate distraction. The Torah is teaching us the Good. Dishonesty and taking what is meant for others and not for you is Bad. Integrity is not about being nice to others, it is about being one, whole, definable, consistent person. It is the sine qua non of being Good. Incorporating into your own domain what belongs to someone else ruins you as a person. The problem is that this is all "off brand" of "frumkeit." It feels too universal, not special. But it is at the core of the Torah. Emunah throughout Tanach, as that Mesilas Yesharim also quotes, means being faithful in business. This is the missing message.
Consider the effect of tax burdens on the non Jewish communities. By depriving funds from public education, one winds up with a poorly educated majority. That will not bode well for us.
However, current educational standards are sometimes immoral, but that only means that Halacha observant Jews should be on public school boards as well.
I agree with you generally that this is a big deal and even more specifically that tax evasion and insider trading of the type that gets prosecuted is a big deal, I don't think they're the best examples of victimizing crimes. With insider trading, at least of public stocks, the seller and buyer would sell and buy regardless--they aren't losing. The law is such because if everyone does this then the system becomes corrupted and stops working as it should. Same with taxes. Your infinitesemal drop in the bucket taxes isn't going to hurt anyone--they're not borrowing more or less based on your tax unless you're Elon Musk.
Someone below noted the dor hamabul, and that's a good comparison. Again, with the less than shave p'ruta there really is no victim. Here I don't even think we have that.
BUT they are important because the system will collapse if we don't have the rule of law (ala dor hamabul) and because of the personal moral corruption it causes (which transfers to our children and community) and because of the tremendous khilul hashem. So that's at least three good reasons that don't involve victims. Just like private violations of taharat misphakha and eating treif on vacation don't have any victims.
Unfortunately if you are a lawyer and are a Ben Torah far too many names of prominent individuals in our communities litigate all kinds of claims in the secular courts against family members involving monetary claims disputes involving real estate , inheritance and domestic disputes that can and should be adjudicated by a competent Beis Din . Unfortunately if you learn Seder Nezikin without getting to Hilcasa Aliba DSmattesa you will be ignorant as to what Halacha requires and resort to the secular courts and probably gain a reputation for not dealing honestly both with Jews and Gentiles alike .
Like it or not there are numerous such cases in the court system that if you dig into the electronic filing system you will see evidence of Chillul HaShem
I think this is a problem that affects nonprofit organizations in general: it's hard to criticize people who might be generous donors. I've seen similar cases in the liberal Jewish world, where rabbis sometimes fail to gate-keep the far left if those people donate heavily.
Murder, Inc. used to donate to yeshivot...
Are you familiar with the Yorucha shiur? https://baishavaad.org/yorucha/
I guess you never came to lakewood
Capital of ponzi schemers protected by askanim….
Lakewood has many people, and the chances of Ponzi schemers increases. Especially in a trusting, close-knit, community.
There is no reason to believe that there are more in Lakewood than anywhere else.
“Lakewood has many people, and the chances of Ponzi schemers increases.” - Ponzi schemes are extremely rare. The year to year growth in lakewood, might seem big, but it’s minimal compared to the amount of ponzi schemes nationwide.
“Especially in a trusting, close-knit, community.
There is no reason to believe that there are more in Lakewood than anywhere else.” - I have no idea how you can justify these sentences back to back - just a blatant contradiction.
You failed to quote any source or even data to support your wholesale Lashon Hara.
You know all about the growth, and how minimal it is compared to other places, yet still fail to quote a single number.
But even if Lakewood had more than other places, it wouldn't have to be a product of some rampant immorality in monetary issues.
There isn’t a comprehensive well tracked database of Ponzi schemes in the US (especially since “Ponzi scheme” isn’t a crime it’s just another form of fraud)
That said there is a website that tracks Ponzi schemes and it finds fewer than 100 annually.
Lakewood (generous definition) makes up 0.0006% of the US population so even 1 Ponzi scheme would make it way more common than average. Even if that website misses 99% of cases, 2 Ponzi schemes in Lakewood would make it much much more common than national average.
So, we have no data, but we know.
We do have data. Not a perfect dataset but we do have data.
In other words we do have reason to believe Ponzi schemes are more common in Lakewood than anywhere else and your argument that “how minimal it is compared to other places” is something you made up with zero backing other than you want it to be so.
What I love most about this, is the dishonesty.
You deflected my original point with zero data , and just “we all know”.
And then when I showed all your inconsistencies, you asked for data …
It’s called deflecting….
Did someone say 'we all know'? If yes, it wasn't me.
But now that you have shown us the basis of your accusations, there is no further reason for debate.
Lakewood remembers the fat investor who came to a meeting in Lakewood and chided the asskanim for Lakewood's fraud. It was no coincidence that his name was Bernie Madoff.
Story sounds straight out of the old lakewood cheder - like the one next to The Irv.
Whether the story had hands or feet (Yiddish) or not… is complete irrelevant and classic red herring deflection.
Is there a large number of people in lakewood on a daily basis acting in fraud?
Are the practice’s of nursing home owners and operators the way of the nation that is supposed to bring light into this world?
Does learning Torah ekavate a person by itself - not necessarily.
Torah can be a Sam hamavas or Sam hachaim - many are getting the later.
Nothing comes without work - including honesty and integrity. Wearing a white shirt, even if it’s dirty won’t make you a better or hillier person.
“Except that most anti-semites at least attempt to make a more convincing case than you do.”
Not sure what world you live in but anti remote don’t work to hard to make their case.
The truth is Tallymore is in Jasckon so you are right, I meant lakewood people not lakewood per se….
Maybe instead of just fighting off every claim you don’t like as anti Semetic, see if there is truth to it. And work on what there is to be worked on.
There is definitely a culture of “rules don’t apply to us” in lakewood. And that carries itself into business - and specifically the shady business practices of most of this town…
I mean, if you apply that same standard to other anti-semitic rhetoric that is almost identical to yours, like "Jews are the worlds biggest crooks", then sure. There are definitely a lot of Jewish crooks, and we should work on that. That's what I wrote about here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-review-of-jud-su-veit-harlan-1940. That's called self-criticism. But when you are only using anti-semitic tropes against those Jews that you hate, then you are a flaming hypocrite and are no different (and are probably worse) than standard anti-semites.
I don’t hate anyone
I did enough healing to realize, we are just a traumatized people
When people hurt other people, it bothers me to the core
There’s a difference between hating and calling out a flaw
Saying "Lakewood is the capital of ponzi schemes" is not pointing out a flaw, it's hatred. Just like you would recognize that saying "Jews are the world's greediest thieves" is hatred, not criticism.
I don’t necessarily agree.
Flaws don’t change the inferior goodness of others.
Society became so black and white - obviously there’s no need to point out insulting charechtotr traits that predominantly affect a group.
I still think there’s a space to call out flaws we have.
Why is pointing out the truth hateful?!?
Kind of sad that you’re looking at who likes the post and calling them out …
Who cares?
Clearly it bothers you if someone thinks different….
It's not the truth, and it is hateful. You are no better than other anti-semites. Except that most anti-semites at least attempt to make a more convincing case than you do.
Speak for yourself!
That does not appear to be the mindset of khaza"l. Regardless, if you agree to live here then you are part of the social compact. You want to create a libertarian heaven then find a remote place and live off the grid with your compatriots. And I don't mean this faecitiously, but this is the system your ancestors decided to join when they moved here.